强烈推荐 (转自Washington Post)

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Jun
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强烈推荐 (转自Washington Post)

Post by Jun » 2005-07-11 7:35

历史必论者可以休矣。种族优越论者可以休矣。Deserve's got nothin' to do with it.

washingtonpost.com
As the World Turns. Turns. Turns . . .
In 'Guns, Germs, and Steel,' a Time-Lapse Return to Television's Stone Age

By Stephen Reiss
Washington Post Staff Writer
Monday, July 11, 2005; C01



It turns out your real estate agent was right. In determining the historic reasons why societies thrived and conquered, while others stayed backward, the answer is: location, location, location.

At least that's the persuasive theory advanced by Jared Diamond, a UCLA professor, MacArthur "genius" grant winner and author of the best-selling book "Guns, Germs, and Steel." Now, Diamond's book has been adapted into a three-part television series by National Geographic that begins tonight at 10 on Maryland Public Television (Channel 22) and tomorrow at 9 p.m. on WETA (Channel 26). The shows strive for an epic feel, hopscotching the continents and bouncing from demonstrations of how to make food from a sago palm to how to wield a rapier while on horseback.

Diamond's argument is ambitious, the anthropological equivalent of the long-sought unified field theory in physics: It seeks to explain everything that matters. Essentially, he says that climate and accidents of ecology are the main reasons why the native peoples of Eurasia, particularly Europe, came to run the world, and not the equally industrious and capable people of Africa, Australia or the Americas.

When our hunter-gatherer ancestors made their first tentative steps toward farming, they were dependent on the native plants that grew in the world they happened to roam. The people of the Middle East won the real estate lottery: It was there that grains such as wheat and barley offered a happy combination of traits. They are relatively high in protein, easy to sow and productive compared with, say, the squash of Mesoamerica or the yams of West Africa.

Similarly, when humans started domesticating animals about 9,000 years ago, the people of the Middle East had the ancestors of goats and sheep at hand. They provided high-protein milk and meat, of course. And the eventual addition of horses and cattle provided the muscle power to pull plows and a transportation vehicle to cover large distances. Diamond surveyed all of the world's land animals over 100 pounds and found humans have been able to domesticate only 14 species. None of them occur naturally in Australia, North America or sub-Saharan Africa. One, the llama, is native to South America. All the rest began in Eurasia.

As societies expanded, the grains and domestic animals of the Middle East moved easily to the east and west. But they were not as well adapted to moving north and south, which is why you don't find wheat fields in the tropics.

The abundance of high-protein food and animal power allowed people to specialize. No longer did everyone in a society have to spend most of their time producing food. So we see the early emergence of professional bureaucrats, clergy, artists, accountants and, yes, soldiers -- all supported by the efficiency of the local agriculture.

These accidents of geography gave the societies of the Middle East a head start of several thousand years in the development of writing, metallurgy and transportation. Finally, the experience of living with domestic animals gave the people of Eurasia yet another advantage: They had developed some tolerance or immunity to crossover diseases such as smallpox, which had its origin in cattle.

The advantages of a 4,000-year head start in technology were dramatically illustrated by the events of November 1532, when Spanish conquistador Francisco Pizarro and 168 Spaniards defeated the 80,000 soldiers of Inca emperor Atahualpa without losing a single man. The Spaniards had too many advantages -- horses, steel swords and, not least, the ability to refer to the written account of how Cortez defeated the Aztecs, which gave them an example to follow. The Incas had no system of writing, had no animals suitable for cavalry and were still using bronze tools. It was no contest.

Unfortunately, there's also no contest between this television series and Diamond's book. Part of the problem is Diamond himself. The producers put the professor at the center of the story, and we watch him traveling the world, in a dugout canoe in New Guinea, walking along a railroad track in Zambia, paging through a book in a Spanish library. But the scenes are static and Diamond is no Carl Sagan. Even the supposed emotional climax of the series, which comes when he visits a facility for African children with malaria, has almost no punch.

The show compounds its difficulties by relying on a set of hokey techniques that call attention to themselves. Granted, the beginnings and spread of agriculture aren't the easiest things to dramatize. But there's enough time-lapse photography of clouds in this series to last a lifetime. And the historic reenactments look like animatronic versions of the dioramas that used to populate natural history museums. Indeed, those of a certain age might feel they're watching the modern equivalent of a school filmstrip: ponderous in pace, with its didacticism guaranteed to be 100 percent sugar-free.

For anyone truly interested in Diamond's ideas, there's a better piece of real estate than in front of the tube. It's a comfortable chair, with his book open in your lap.

© 2005 The Washington Post Company

CAVA
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Post by CAVA » 2005-07-11 8:35

杜撰个副标题:You are what you eat (这词儿不是不让人烦的)。

Diamond的理论是个有意思的理论,但用单一因素解释如文明进程这样复杂的事情,是否简单化了?至1532年在某个地区仍然适用,后来呢?科技国力等等就不和自然条件直接挂钩了吧?当然书里的阐述也许更丰富,从报道里不好直接下判断。

Gigi2
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Post by Gigi2 » 2005-07-11 9:00

谢谢Jun :love011: --真是很有趣的理论。 不过我也有同样的疑惑:那么亚洲不也是同样土壤肥沃,农作物/畜牧业发达,文明发展得很早么,为什么亚洲就没有欧洲那样的致力于扩张呢?当然书里可能有详尽的解释,报纸上的不详细。
爱情, 来了又去, 只有猪肉卷儿是永恒的

tiffany
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Post by tiffany » 2005-07-11 9:10

once again, they deal mostly with western culture developement, I guess
乡音无改鬓毛衰

洛洛
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Post by 洛洛 » 2005-07-11 9:17

其实我觉得非洲也蛮富饶的,政治是太腐败了。
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silkworm
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Post by silkworm » 2005-07-11 9:35

有意思的理论。
如果我理解得没错,文章中给农业牧业并举的文化“打分”最高,我需要进一步了解作者对“”中东“的定义。

Gigi2
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Post by Gigi2 » 2005-07-11 9:35

我发现在amazon上关于此书的读者评论非常好。推荐阅读一下儿。有人给两星三星的,讲得很有理有据的。 而barnes&noble上的阅读评论就非常一般,统统给五星儿, 言论一边儿倒, 有托儿的嫌疑。:f23:
Last edited by Gigi2 on 2005-07-11 14:16, edited 1 time in total.
爱情, 来了又去, 只有猪肉卷儿是永恒的

Jun
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Post by Jun » 2005-07-11 9:49

I confess. I have not read the book and cannot give a real opinion on this book's theories. :oops:

My own opinion is this: The history of human societies works in the same mechanism as evolution, ie, a combination/interaction of random events (mutations, inventions, someone's brilliant ideas, etc.) and environmental pressure (think natural selection).

Sometimes I wonder perhaps I could get a Ph.D. and/or publish a book on my theory. Then have a TV program too! :p

water
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Post by water » 2005-07-11 12:57

Gigi2 wrote:谢谢Jun :love011: --真是很有趣的理论。 不过我也有同样的疑惑:那么亚洲不也是同样土壤肥沃,农作物/畜牧业发达,文明发展得很早么,为什么亚洲就没有欧洲那样的致力于扩张呢?当然书里可能有详尽的解释,报纸上的不详细。
You are not the only person who has this question. It is very interesting that his book is convincing enough mostly to western readers. I saw more than one critiques by People from different culture (Asia, Africa, South America etc.) questioning the author's knowledge and understanding of the other region's geography, history and culture.

Jun
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Post by Jun » 2005-07-11 13:15

为什么?

或许原因跟为什么恐龙灭绝了为什么新西兰没有哺乳动物一样:某些偶然因素加在一起的结果,可能包括地理,政治,文化,历史甚至某一个大臣的某一个政策。举例:或许中国社会现状在儒家的历史过程里或许有一定的必然性,但是儒家本身的出现却是极其偶然的。如果我有时间机器,回到XXX B.C., 一枪干掉孔夫子的妈妈,现在的中国可能完全不同,也可能早就不存在了。

扩张性人人都有,是从东非Eve那一族的基因里传下来的。如果没有这个基因,我们要么还在东非转悠,要么就早被别的猿人踩扁了,而不是我们把他们踩扁。

虽然这个作者对东方社会没有足够的了解,但是这个理论不是不能应用在亚洲的。汉民族在历史某个阶段真的没有扩张吗?我才不信。日本之扩张的欲望只是个近代的例子。不能把过去500年的历史当成过去5000年的历史,没有扩张是不能的结果,而非不愿。如果撇开我们preconceived notion of Asian history,就会发现亚洲人和其他民族的共性.

西班牙殖民者打败印第安人的重要一个武器是天花。欧洲人因为久经天花的磨炼,许多人对此病毒有抵抗力,而且(半)抵抗天花的基因也很广泛。而南美从来没有过天花,所以没有人有任何抵抗力。西班牙军队一扔感染过天花的毯子,他们哗啦啦地就倒了一大片。

豪情
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Post by 豪情 » 2005-07-11 13:25

而且现在的汉民族也不是简单的几千年前的汉民族, 至少有一半游牧民族的融合.

Jun
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Post by Jun » 2005-07-11 13:27

融合的过程,其实也是各民族扩张混战的结果。汉朝为什么老要跟匈奴打仗?宋朝为什么跟契丹,女真打仗?

Knowing
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Post by Knowing » 2005-07-11 13:27

西班牙殖民者打败印第安人的重要一个武器是天花。欧洲人因为久经天花的磨炼,许多人对此病毒有抵抗力,而且(半)抵抗天花的基因也很广泛。而南美从来没有过天花,所以没有人有任何抵抗力。西班牙军队一扔感染过天花的毯子,他们哗啦啦地就倒了一大片。
原始生化武器啊
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silkworm
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Post by silkworm » 2005-07-11 13:37

Jun wrote:汉朝为什么老要跟匈奴打仗?宋朝为什么跟契丹,女真打仗?
这两朝打仗,主动被动还是很有区别的。中国历史上,汉族主动打的仗,次数有限。

我想起早年的片子《河殇》,里面有一个蓝色(海洋)/黄色(土地)文化的观点,倒有点意思。日本又是另外异型,岛国。

Jun
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Post by Jun » 2005-07-11 13:44

中国历史上,汉族主动打的仗,次数有限。
I beg to differ. There is too much subjectivity and self-serving bias in this kind of "official version of the truth" to convince me. Also one has to look at what happened in the entire history, not selected periods.

Without distinguishing "who started the war," my point is that human expansion, like any other species, is inevitable. Any species without the genes for expansion does not last long. Since the Chinese are still around, they can't be too tame.

Note that extinction does not mean the species or society was tame -- it could simply be bad luck, including disease or genetic disadvantage.

I personally think 河殇 is pretty stupid. The most primitive application of geography-determinant theory.

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Post by 豪情 » 2005-07-11 13:58

These accidents of geography gave the societies of the Middle East a head start of several thousand years in the development of writing, metallurgy and transportation.
这个the societies of the Middle East用的太含糊了吧, 一个学者可以这么不严谨么? 还是报纸改成通俗易懂的? a head start of several thousand years 是拿什么民族来和什么民族比较呢?

silkworm
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Post by silkworm » 2005-07-11 14:10

打起仗来,当然有个谁主动的问题了。把宋朝被北方各族打得落花流水,看成是狗咬狗一嘴毛儿,是不客观的。而明朝修长城,就是汉族处于守势,而不主动出击的显然证据。

说起中国历史上的“不思进取”,我想起我老板曾经看了一本有关鸦片战争的书,很惊奇地发现,原来英国往中国卖鸦片的很大原因是因为英国在清朝这儿贸易逆差特别厉害。英国花了好些钱买茶叶,可清朝“地大物博”都不需要从英国进口,只有付白银和银元。英国开始考虑怎样措办一些既可为中国方面所接受,又能支付茶价,而且本身还可以赚钱的一些商品”,这就卖上鸦片了。

我说这个例子是想说,即便满族是靠主动扩张,推翻了汉族的明朝,建立了清朝,之后也大大减弱了主动进攻的势头,主要以笼络为手段维持统治(康熙年间主动打新疆准噶尔为例外)。中国历史上处于本能的主动扩张,相比其它民族/文化,是较弱的。


“Since the Chinese are still around, they can't be too tame. ”这个我不能同意。只有凶猛扩张的民族才能发展壮大?我不认为世界上各国各族的发展和衰落能由一个同一的规律概括,否则社会和文化也太机械了。

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Post by Jun » 2005-07-11 14:16

只有凶猛扩张的民族才能生存至今

water
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Post by water » 2005-07-11 14:36

silkworm wrote:
Jun wrote:汉朝为什么老要跟匈奴打仗?宋朝为什么跟契丹,女真打仗?
这两朝打仗,主动被动还是很有区别的。中国历史上,汉族主动打的仗,次数有限。

我想起早年的片子《河殇》,里面有一个蓝色(海洋)/黄色(土地)文化的观点,倒有点意思。日本又是另外异型,岛国。
hehe, When I saw Jun's post, my first thought is 《河殇》too.

water
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Post by water » 2005-07-11 15:01

Jun wrote:只有凶猛扩张的民族才能生存至今
Oh, I see. Basically, you are saying China didn't expand because China in history failed to do that not because China didn't have the lust to do that?

笑嘻嘻
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Post by 笑嘻嘻 » 2005-07-11 15:38

老大,中国好像不是2000年来没有扩张吧?
云浆未饮结成冰

洛洛
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Post by 洛洛 » 2005-07-11 17:32

我觉得儒家的出现不能算偶然,那时候不是老子韩非子淮南子呼啦啦出现了一大堆流派么,汉朝的董仲舒才值得干掉。
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小涵
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Post by 小涵 » 2005-07-11 20:32

silkworm wrote:英国往中国卖鸦片的很大原因是因为英国在清朝这儿贸易逆差特别厉害
:f19: 不知道现在要卖些什么,卖不了什么就让人民币升值。

camellia
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Post by camellia » 2005-07-12 15:43

我到觉得不是不想扩张,而是作为农业大国的中国,当时的生产力和人口,地方够大了,物质丰裕,就成了守家的小地主。周边的小国大部分都是附属国,印度呢又打不过去,不像欧洲,除了法国,意大利以外都只有那么屁大点的农耕地方,当然要扩张。
另一个是要怎样定义中国,汉还是在扩张的,高丽都打到了,三国,三个国家呢。两晋南北朝就别提多乱,跟中世纪欧洲一样,隋唐可没少征占,宋基本上好地方都占了,所以要放着邻居抢劫,元要说是中国,那蒙古族应该还是统治者,明咱陆上没地方了,郑和就出去探路,回来说都没咱们富饶,你想谁没事自己跑去支边呀。清终于搞定周边各族,历史版图最大,所以就关上门锁国了。

dropby
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Post by dropby » 2005-07-12 17:45

谁说不想扩张了?问题是那时候汽车飞机都还没发明出来,能扩张的范围有限。就象现在美国再厉害,也只能在地球上扩张么。而且美国再富,打起仗来国库也供不上,赤字嗖嗖地往上涨。汉武大帝里面,跟匈奴的最后一战,因为匈奴逃得太远了,供给那个费劲。打得民生凋弊的。要没有桑弘羊这把理财好手,拿啥打呀。
如果不想扩张的话,春秋的时候,三国的时候,大家和平共处得了,打啥呀。
当然中国曾经地大物博,扩张的动力没有日本这种国家强大是真的。

Jun
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Post by Jun » 2005-07-13 10:19

我的看法是:先要重整一下最基本的概念。所谓中国人其实是个极不严谨的分类,放在历史的背景里看,最早是一族一族的Homo erectus,分散居住在东亚各地。而亚洲西部,南部,各有各的部落。大家都在不停地繁殖,扩大,互相争夺有限的资源。有的成功了,有的失败了;而失败的有的就消失了,被完全淘汰,另一些跟征服者通婚,基因得以部份保持。不能说,因为现在的中国版图包括黄河以北长江以南,几千年前的部落扩张和战争就是人民内部矛盾,就不是种族扩张,不是你死我活的。

把过去一万年,或者五千年的历史淘出来,加一加花在打仗和争夺资源上,别的种族的扩张时间和精力未必比日本就少,不过日本的例子是最靠近现在,手段尤其触目惊心,中国人记忆犹新,但不能说明那就是独一无二的。蒙古呢?满族人呢?他们在历史上也就那么一次两次,如果只看现在的状况,肯定不觉得他们的扩张性如何强烈,但是一旦条件成熟,天时地利,一样能发挥大家基因里都有的本性。

但是修正一下我前面说过的,不凶猛扩张的民族也不是一定被淘汰,如果他们的环境是隔离的,没有自然选择的压力。例如新几内亚部落,例如许多原始部落。但是在环境不恶劣的情况下,人数肯定会增长,争夺有限资源的压力也肯定会越来越高。

Gigi2
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Post by Gigi2 » 2005-07-14 8:35

jun 说的这个很有道理。
爱情, 来了又去, 只有猪肉卷儿是永恒的

Gigi2
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Post by Gigi2 » 2005-07-14 8:35

jun 说的这个很有道理。
爱情, 来了又去, 只有猪肉卷儿是永恒的

silkworm
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Post by silkworm » 2005-07-14 9:07

我又来较真儿了。 :wavy:

JUN你说到生存压力。生存压力大了,首先内斗,继而向外扩张。但是这有个前提---多恶劣的生活水平可以促使一个民族生出扩张的心思呢?这并没有统一的标准。

进一步来说,我粗略地估量一下,就算把中国和日本放在同样的生活水准下,日本肯定先要扩张。这是我的第一个观点---民族性的差异。

我的另一个观点,JUN你也提到了---“如果他们的环境是隔离的,没有自然选择的压力”---地理的条件对历史的发展很很很有关系。地理肯定不是决定历史的唯一的因素,但是任何忽视地理条件的历史观点,都有极大缺陷。

总之,我的观点是: 人/民族本身(包括民族性,文化,宗教,科学技术)
+ 地理(包括物质条件,地域隔绝或不隔绝)
+ 不可操作力(天灾或天赐良缘)
===〉混合起来,造就历史。

Jun
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Joined: 2003-12-15 11:43

Post by Jun » 2005-07-14 10:19

1. 蚕请提供 “民族性”的准确定义。与生俱来的基因?集体无意识?那个模糊的“文化”概念?界限呢?(时间和地理的界限,多久以前的才算数?象中国这样的多民族的政治体系,怎么算?) 谁跟谁可以算一族的?苗族人愿意跟汉族人在一起讨论共同的民族性吗?我和白金能算一族的吗(三百年够不够把两个族并成一个?在基因上肯定是不够的。) 宋朝的民族性,跟今天的中国人有多少共同之处?又如何衡量?注意,民族性暗示其普遍性,但大多时候我们只能看到集权政府里少数人的决定。汉武帝一个人的个性能代表全国人的共性吗?George W. Bush和他几个死党的政策能代表美国人民共同的“民族性”吗?

2. 造就历史的一个关键是“不可控制因素”(即不可操作力,但更广泛),跟其他的因素有不可分割的联系。例如一个部落不可能挑自己的地理环境。如果毛利人不是被困在太平洋中间的岛上,连金属矿都没有,而是接触到其他人搞得到的武器,恐怕能打遍天下。

3. 我不认为内斗先,外斗后。部落内部是自己的亲戚族人,要竞争,先打邻居,知道不是自己人的,跟自己人基因差别大的。

4.
中国和日本放在同样的生活水准下,日本肯定先要扩张
这句话我不太明白“同样的生活水准下”是指什么。让日本人民跟中国人民对换地理环境,对换过去两千年的历史?日本还是“肯定先要扩张”?他们生来就比别人爱扩张么?把一个日本人放在别处生长也会有超乎他人的扩张倾向么?如果他们的基因跟别人这么不一样,这么天然地爱扩张,怎么还局限在岛上呢?早两三前年就出来了。日本民族的弱点不在于扩张倾向-- 我唱个反调,其实他们受阻的地方是文化传统太过闭塞了,坚持纯种自己人,接受新技术虽然快,但是接受新思想其实并不快。这个弱点在过去大家都挺闭塞时倒不是大问题,但是换在今天就未必能持久。 日本人是否by nature比别人更凶恶,更坏,这个问题困绕了我许多年(说二十年不夸张),简单地说:我现在不这么认为了。

5. 似乎大家普遍把“扩张”当成贬义的概念。但是我用这个词的时候没有这个意思。按照进化论的说法,每一个物种,每一个生物个体(organism),为了能保证自己的基因千秋外代永不绝,都自然而然地要复制自己,复本越多越好。这不是谁的intelligent design,理由很简单--那些不积极复制自己的物种或个体,早就在几亿年的考验中死光光了。扩张有两个基本成份:a. 多生后代,b. 给自己和后代极好的生存条件;a, b而且是互动的,条件越好,后代越多。但后代越多,给有限的资源的压力就越大,所以有必要竞争,跟别的物种(人和动物,食肉类和食草类,动物和植物)发生冲突,跟别的部落发生冲突,一棵树跟它邻居的另一棵树争夺土里的养份,地上的阳光,天上落下的水。人不肯承认自己跟动植物不同,其实是一样的。

6. 人类跟动植物根本的差别,其实不在于本性,而在于一个看似微小的变数:语言 (后来进化成文字)。人类文明之所以在历史某一点开始突飞猛进,其实全靠知识的保存和交流。这样一来,一点一滴的发明和新发现以几何级数增长,因为交流分享知识的人越多,成果就越广大,而且刺激影响他人进一步发明和发现,而不是慢慢地各自在自家一族里积累(动物还不能积累呢)。

所以说,一个文明的保存和发展最最紧要的条件是什么?我的回答是:交换(exchange)。与世隔绝的好处是能安安稳稳地活下去,不怕被人给灭了。但是你看看新几内亚,亚马逊河流部落,甚至美洲印第安人的纵向的命运,就会明白。所以阿拉伯人不会灭绝的。他们的传统和宗教或许不会得以保存,他们的国家和政治结构或许不能保存,但是他们的基因不会消失的,因为他们处在一个交换的中心。他们在历史上对全世界的文明的贡献实在难以估量。没有他们就没有现在的世界。而这并不是他们的民族性有什么优越之处,只不过是地理环境和他们的游牧生活方式的结果。

现在的世界,民族之间的隔离是越来越不可能了。任何部落其实都不会完全灭绝了。

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